Sportsmen do drink, but you don't want to overdo it – Lloyd

Clive Lloyd: ‘Discipline has always been something that I’ve believed in and the guys in the West Indies team knew that from day one’ © The Cricketer International

Past West Indies cricketers drank and were subjected to curfews but they respected their profession and would never go overboard. This admission was made by former captain Clive Lloyd at the launch of his new biography in England.Lloyd, who is now a director of the West Indies Cricket Board (WICB), said he never condoned indiscipline and the players he led to global dominance in the 1970s and 1980s knew where to draw the line.”If you have rules and people break them, they know they’ll get punished. I think you need curfews if you have young people in the squad,” Lloyd said. “Discipline has always been something that I’ve believed in and the guys in the West Indies team knew that from day one. They said that once they saw me annoyed, they knew they’d overstepped the line.””We always had curfews and we had respect – respect for one another, respect for your profession and respect for the people you represent,” he added. However, Lloyd said that curfews weren’t imposed for the tour matches as the players had their free time then.Lloyd, who is also a committee member at Lancashire, Andrew Flintoff’s county, explained how drinking was not the only way to build team spirit but it had been a part of professional sport for many years.”Respect has got to be earned. You have to do the right things and lead by example. If you do things like Andrew has done, then you let yourself down,” Lloyd said.But Lloyd said former England coach Duncan Fletcher was wrong to speak out about Flintoff’s behaviour during the Ashes tour and could have handled the situation better.Fletcher said, in a serialisation of his autobiography, he had to cancel a training session in Australia as Flintoff, who was captain in the absence of Michael Vaughan, was under the influence of alcohol. Although Lloyd admitted drinking had always been a part of professional sport, he accepts Flintoff overstepped the mark.”Sportsmen have been drinking for years, it is not something new, but you don’t want to overdo it. I think there’s a limit because you need to be fresh and you’ve got to be thinking straight. We went out drinking but the point is we never overdid it. We went out as a group and knew it was important to do the right thing.”

'I told him he was power-crazy and egotistical' – Arthur

Mickey Arthur has not backed down in his stand-off with Norman Arendse, filing a counter-charge against him © Getty Images
 

Mickey Arthur, South Africa’s coach, has filed a counter-charge against board president Norman Arendse after a heated exchange between the two and in response to disciplinary charges filed against him with regard to a selection dispute over the squad for the tour to Bangladesh.”Yes, there is animosity between us,” Arthur told . “I told him he was power-crazy and egotistical but I never swore at him.”I’ve taken him on about this team. The transformation policy that Arendse wants to be applied does not exist. He is out of bounds. I told him he was not a selector and should keep his nose out of team selections. I can say now that he regularly sends back teams,” Arthur said, while not elaborating when such incidents took place.”Unfortunately I felt I had no choice but to do likewise [file a counter-charge],” Arthur told Reuters. “The president accused me of all sorts of things apart from failing, or even refusing to implement CSA’s (Cricket South Africa’s) transformation policies. That is simply untrue.”Arthur’s comments come in the wake of his argument with Arendse in a second teleconference yesterday to sort out the team’s selection. Arendse, in the first discussion on Tuesday, reportedly refused to approve the the squad chosen by the six-man selection committee, of which Arthur is a member, as it contained less than seven coloured players.”What’s his problem? We have a good, established team and with the exception of one match we have fielded four black players in every Test this season,” said Arthur. “I don’t know where he gets the idea that there should be seven black players in the touring team.”Arendse alleged that Arthur had behaved in a “disrespectful” and “abusive” manner in the meeting, and had laid disciplinary charges against him and indicated that CSA policy about team selection was not followed. “If a coach says, ‘There’s no transformation policy’ [among selectors], if he says, ‘Sorry, I’m not prepared to implement CSA’s policies’, then his position is untenable.”Arthur, however, had a different take on it. “The president’s implication would appear to be that I prefer to select white players over black players, which is deeply insulting and hurtful,” he said. “[Coloured players like] Hashim Amla, Charl Langeveldt and JP Duminy have all established themselves in the national squad in my time as coach while Ashwell Prince became the country’s first black captain.”Arthur also said he had received an “insulting” email from Arendse, over which he had obtained legal advice.Meanwhile, Gerald Majola, the CSA chief executive, said the dispute between the two would be handled internally as per the board’s human resources procedures. “CSA has formal HR procedures, and this matter will be dealt with in this forum and a statement will be issued at the appropriate time.”It is regretted that these disputes have been aired in the public domain, particularly on the eve of an important touring season for the Proteas.”

Victoria trail despite McDonald century


Scorecard

It was a stressful day for Brad Hodge, who spent the morning with his wife who had heart surgery, before he returned to the Junction Oval to post 64 © Getty Images
 

Andrew McDonald’s second first-class century was not enough for Victoria to earn first-innings points on a day when Brad Hodge’s innings was interrupted by a family health problem. McDonald made 139 and Hodge scored 64 but the Bushrangers were dismissed for 301, falling 19 short of South Australia’s total.Hodge’s contribution was especially impressive considering he spent the first part of the day at hospital with his wife, Megan, who was having surgery to deal with an irregular heartbeat that had caused her to pass out several times in the past few weeks. Hodge had started his innings late on the first day but had special dispensation from the umpires to retire not out on his overnight score of 4.He said it was a tough day but he was able to concentrate after ensuring Megan’s two-and-a-half-hour operation had gone well. “I had a long day, up at 5.30,” Hodge said. “It’s a stressful day – it’s been stressful the last couple of weeks. They said it was a success, so that’s the main thing.”When Hodge restarted his innings Victoria were in big trouble at 6 for 112 after Jason Gillespie and Paul Rofe made early breakthroughs. But McDonald and Hodge added 159 for the seventh wicket, rarely looking troubled as they pushed comfortable singles and drove the Redbacks’ pace-heavy attack safely over a quick outfield.McDonald played some superb square cuts and scampered through for a quick single to reach his century from 147 deliveries. Just when he and the tailenders looked set to overhaul South Australia’s total McDonald edged Mark Cleary to second slip for 139.Cleary finished the job by bowling Allan Wise for 4 and leaving the Redbacks a small first-innings advantage. At stumps they were 0 for 20 with Shane Deitz on 11 and Matthew Elliott on 8.Cleary ended up with 3 for 61 having also trapped the dangerous Cameron White lbw for 32, but it was a pair of wickets from the debutant Daniel Christian that turned things back in South Australia’s favour. In the final over with the old ball, Christian bowled Hodge and then also rattled Shane Harwood’s stumps for 0 to ensure the work of the Redbacks’ fast bowlers earlier in the day was not wasted.

Hayden and Ponting build after England stumble

Scorecard and ball-by-ball details
How they were out – England
How they were out – Australia
Short cuts

Matthew Hayden and Ricky Ponting took Australia’s lead to 148 by the close © Getty Images

Australia built a commanding position on the second day at the WACA, extending their first-innings advantage of 29 to an imposing 148 with strong innings from Matthew Hayden and Ricky Ponting. Their five-man attack had shared the success in dismissing England for 215, and without Kevin Pietersen’s 70 and a tail-end rally Australia’s advantage would have been even greater.England only momentarily managed any momentum during the period when their last three wickets added 87 precious runs and then Matthew Hoggard removed Justin Langer with his first ball. But either side of that, it was a day of Australia gradually tightening their grip on the match and the Ashes.Hayden and Ponting played intelligently and with a determination not to let England back into the contest. Both survived some testing moments against the new ball as Hoggard again found swing, but as the hardness disappeared the pair produced the most comfortable partnership of the match.England had found batting a far from comfortable task as Australia hit their mark from the early overs. Runs were scarce but England were intent on continuing their positive attitude from the first day and this resulted in the first two wickets. Paul Collingwood slashed to gully before Andrew Strauss was sent on his way by a dubious caught behind decision as replays suggested daylight between bat and ball.If ever there was a time for the Pietersen-Andrew Flintoff partnership to fire for England this was it, but both players found it difficult to play at their natural tempo as Australia’s main three pacemen held sway. As is often the case in such situations, it was a lesser bowler who benefited from the pressure as Andrew Symonds showed his all-round worth.His first ball to Flintoff had the England captain edging low to Shane Warne at first slip and with him went the last realistic chance of establishing a decent lead. Geraint Jones’s miserable series continued with an airy drive to gully, and Ponting’s hunch had reaped rich dividends. It isn’t often Warne stands through a session without having a bowl, but he wasn’t required by his captain until midway through the afternoon.At one stage, when Sajid Mahmood had fallen to reduce England to 7 for 128, he wasn’t looking like being needed at all, but Pietersen remained defiant and the lower-order refused to cave in. To begin with Pietersen’s tactics with the tail were curious as he opted for singles early in the over leaving Hoggard to block four or five deliveries … and the scoreboard wasn’t moving.However, the approach changed following a message from the dressing-room, and Pietersen took the attack to Warne. He benefited when McGrath made a hash of a catch at long-off when he was on 53, and to rub salt in Warne’s wounds he then majestically drove a six over extra cover. Pietersen fell trying to launch another ball into the stands as Symonds, who’d replaced McGrath at long-off, safety held on.

Kevin Pietersen held England’s innings together with 70 © Getty Images

Still, though, England refused to cave in as the unlikely alliance of Steve Harmison and Monty Panesar added 40, the highest stand of the innings. Panesar showed the value of hours in the nets – and that he has plenty of natural ability – by twice lofting Warne over midwicket and then on-driving Stuart Clark to the rope. While their partnership was valuable to England – both in runs and morale – in the cold light of day it showed that the top order failed to supply the goods.For a brief moment one of those occasions where a last-wicket frolic leads to a burst of wickets from the opening bowlers seemed a possibility. Hoggard located the perfect spot with his first ball as Langer was bowled between bat and pad, and a number of deliveries whistled past the edges of Hayden and Ponting.But the pair showed that the surface has more runs on offer than have been scored so far as their stand increased in tempo and fluency. Hayden was still far from his thumping best, but finally managed to kick on after making a start. The powerful sweeps he has often unfurled in the sub-continent made Panesar less of a threat than the first innings, and his first half-century of the series came off 77 balls. Ponting made up for a rare failure first time round with a steady 85-ball fifty and there was a spring in the step of both batsmen as they left the field.Heading into this match Australia had one hand back on the Ashes urn. After today you can add a few more fingers to that grip.

Short cuts

Mystery of the day
Andrew Strauss’ caught-behind dismissal. The replays suggested he missed it, Strauss was not pleased, Adam Gilchrist went up straight away, the cordon followed and Rudi Koertzen was convinced.Charge of the day
Glenn McGrath wanted a dot-ball bouncer to keep Kevin Pietersen on strike, but as he delivered Kevin Pietersen was racing towards him and produced a tennis-style smash for a single.Dismissal of the day
Matthew Hoggard’s inswinger to remove Justin Langer with the first ball of the second innings. It was the second time in the game Langer had fallen to a ball sliding between bat and pad.Surprise of the day
The last-wicket partnership between Steve Harmison and Monty Panesar, which cut Australia’s first-innings advantage to 29. The pair put on 40 in the highest stand of the England innings.Bore of the day
The defensive fields Ricky Ponting used against Kevin Pietersen slowed the pace of the second session and England’s last three wickets added 87 while the tactic was being employed.

ECB examine Eastbourne pitch after 19 wickets on day one

Sussex face the possibility of censure or even a points deduction from theECB after 19 wickets fell on the first day of their second division matchagainst Northamptonshire at Eastbourne.A statement is expected this morning after deliberations between pitchinspector Mike Denness, who was at the Saffrons all day, and the umpiresover a well grassed, but dry surface.Bowlers on both sides benefitted from ideal conditions for swing bowlingwith Sussex’s James Kirtley passing 50 wickets for the season when heclaimed a season’s best 6-41 as the second division leaders were bowled outfor 110.New ball partner Jason Lewry supported him with 3-38 with only Russell Warren, who made 151 when the teams met a week ago, top-scoring with a gritty 29 off 81 balls.Sussex’s batsmen found the going just as tough when they replied and only asuperb innings from skipper Chris Adams prevented them conceding a firstinnings deficit.They were struggling on 83-6 after tea, but Adams put on 55 for the next twowickets with Nick Wilton and Kirtley as he reached his sixth half-century ofthe season. Adams finished unbeaten on 82, made off 135 balls with 13 boundaries, with Sussex 151-9, a lead of 41.Principal support came from Tony Cottey, who made 17 in a fourth wicketstand of 43, and wicketkeeper Nick Wilton (14).

Vaughan moves up to second spot in PwC ratings

Both Michael Vaughan and Herschelle Gibbs moved up one place in the latest PriceWaterhouseCoopers Test ratings after scoring hundreds at Edgbaston, but the biggest gainer was Graeme Smith. His 277 and 85 in the Test ensured that he moved up a whopping 25 places, to No. 19. Vaughan and Gibbs swapped places with Sachin Tendulkar – who dropped to third spot – and Rahul Dravid, who is now ranked 10th.Darren Lehmann’s century against Bangladesh in the Test at Cairns moved him up 11 places to No. 47, while Steve Waugh climbed two spots to No 13. Habibul Bashar improved his rating to 575 points (No. 36) – the highest ever by a Bangladesh batsman.

Rank Batsman Points
1 Brian Lara (WI) 887
2 Michael Vaughan (Eng) 858
3 Sachin Tendulkar (Ind) 843
4 Matthew Hayden (Aus) 821
5 Ricky Ponting (Aus) 816
6 Jacques Kallis (SA) 812
7 Adam Gilchrist (Aus) 799
8 Inzamam-ul-Haq (Pak) 793
9 Herschelle Gibbs (SA) 792
10 Rahul Dravid (Ind) 789

Among the bowlers, Stuart MacGill climbed an impressive nine places to No. 7 after his haul of ten wickets against Bangladesh. However, Glenn McGrath’s lacklustre performance – he finished with 1 for 79 – ensured that he dropped a place to third spot. It also allowed meant Shaun Pollock stayed top of the rankings, despite taking only two wickets at Edgbaston. Meanwhile, Darren Gough, who played his first Test in nearly two years, made a reappearance in the top 20, at No. 19.

Rank Bowler Points
1 Shaun Pollock (SA) 872
2 Muttiah Muralitharan (SL) 861
3 Glenn McGrath (Aus) 848
4 Harbhajan Singh (Ind) 746
5 Jason Gillespie (Aus) 740
6 Andrew Caddick (Eng) 698
7= Stuart MacGill (Aus) 691
Shoaib Akhtar (Pak) 691
9 Anil Kumble (Ind) 688
10 Makhaya Ntini (SA) 682

Click here for full PwC ratings

ICC in turmoil as Speed ousted

Ray Mali and Malcolm Speed preside over the fateful ICC meeting in Dubai in March © International Cricket Council
 

Malcolm Speed, the ICC chief executive, has been put on paid leave until his contract runs out on July 4.In a brief statement, David Morgan, the ICC’s president-elect, said: “This … is the result of a fundamental breakdown in the relationship between the CEO and a number of board members, including the president, over a variety of issues that include Zimbabwe.”David Richardson, the ICC general manager – cricket, will serve as interim CEO until Speed’s replacement, Haroon Lorgat, assumes the role at the ICC’s annual conference at the beginning of July.”Cricinfo has learnt that though Speed’s ouster was largely due to serious differences he had with Ray Mali, the ICC president, and Norman Arendse, the president of Cricket South Africa, over the Zimbabwe crisis, the chief executive’s recent comments on the unauthorized Indian Cricket League (ICL) had senior BCCI officials demanding that he leave the post.BCCI started pushing for Speed’s removal after he told reporters in Mumbai that the Indian board was yet to officially request ICC to ban the one-year-old ICL. Indian officials later claimed that the issue had been raised at various ICC meetings.Apparently, the decision to remove Speed was finalized informally during a meeting of some senior ICC board members, including a senior Indian official, on the eve of the Indian Premier League (IPL) launch in Bangalore on April 18.”There were many who were not happy with Malcolm’s confrontational style of functioning,” a BCCI official, who did not wish to be named, told Cricinfo.”We have removed him so what is left to say now,” said a senior official from the anti-Speed camp, who did not wish to be identified. “We were not happy with the way he handled the Zimbabwe situation, and his recent statements which implied that the ICL issue had not been raised officially within ICC.”Rumours had also been circulating for the last month that Speed had had a serious falling-out with Mali, following the ICC executive’s decision not to take any major action against Zimbabwe following an independent forensic audit carried out by KPMG, which the ICC has since refused to make available.Following the ICC’s meeting in Dubai in March, at which the decision to overlook the audit was taken, Speed refused to attend the traditional post-meeting media conference, explaining privately to the executive that he was not prepared to defend in public a decision with which he fundamentally disagreed. It had been the recommendation of the audit committee that senior ZC officials should have been referred to the ethics committee.In July last year, a confidential report by Speed and Faisal Hasnain, the ICC’s chief financial officer, was leaked, much to the ICC’s embarrassment and anger, in which Speed made a series of stinging attacks on Zimbabwe Cricket’s finances, concluding: “It is clear that the accounts of ZC have been deliberately falsified to mask various illegal transactions from the auditors and the government of Zimbabwe. The accounts were incorrect and at no stage did ZC draw the attention of the users of these accounts to the unusual transactions. It may not be possible to rely on the authenticity of its balance sheet.”Mali, who is a staunch supporter of Zimbabwe and of its officials, has not yet commented publicly on the situation it will be Morgan who fronts up at the press conference at Lord’s tomorrow.Mali is understood to have been incensed by Speed’s conduct and gained support from a number of board members as he successfully moved to have Speed sidelined for the remainder of his tenure. Although Zimbabwe has emerged as the key reason for the falling-out, it is understood that Speed’s recent statement that the rebel Indian Cricket League had approached the ICC seeking official recognition had also been used as an excuse to get rid of him.”At this point I am not in a position to respond to your question,” Mali told the when asked for the reasons the action against Speed had been taken . “But I will definitely do so in the near future.”Haroon Lorgat, South Africa’s former convenor of selectors, is lined up to succeed Speed as CEO, but said that it would not be appropriate for him to comment on the development as he is not involved with the ICC yet. “This is something I don’t want to get into right now,” Lorgat told Cricinfo.

Rofe powers SA to victory

Paceman Paul Rofe bowled South Australia to a 56-run victory over Western Australia on the final day of the opening Pura Cup cricket match of the summer.Rofe picked up four of the five wickets to fall today at the WACA Ground and figures of 5-89 off 26.2 overs as WA was all out for 314 in its second innings.After resuming at 5-144, Marcus North (80) and Beau Casson (15) survived the opening hour and it looked like the Warriors would challenge the large total.But North fell in the first over after the second new ball was taken, just over half-an-hour before the interval.Rofe ended the 69-run sixth wicket stand by having the left-hander caught behind trying to drive through covers.Casson was struck in the chest in the next over by Shaun Tait (2-70) before the quick had him edging a ball to slips in his following over.The Warriors were 7-234 at lunch but Redbacks captain Greg Blewett made the unusual decision of not bowling the opening pair of Rofe and Tait straight after the interval.All-rounders Peter Worthington and Darren Wates gained in confidence and put together a century stand for the eighth wicket to put the Warriors in the frame for an unlikely victory.However, Wates tried to loft the ball once too often and his agricultural shot off Rofe’s bowling landed safely in the hands of Mark Cleary.Rofe then delivered another vital blow by removing Worthington (50) caught-and-bowled with the next delivery.The right-arm quick failed to grasp the ball cleanly at the first attempt, but it bobbed up kindly enough for him to turn around and complete the dismissal.No.11 Paul Wilson, who was playing with a fractured jaw after a Mick Miller bouncer smashed into his face on Monday, pushed the hat-trick ball for two.However, Rofe had Jo Angel (0) edging a simple catch to David Fitzgerald shortly after to secure the win.

Batsmen's feast in the offing


Mohammad Kaif and Yuvraj Singh share a light moment on the eve of the game
© Getty Images

The hot and humid weather at Mumbai not withstanding, conditions at the Wankhede Stadium were perfect for a typically high-scoring game of one-day cricket. The pitch had a smattering of grass spread evenly across the surface, but looked absolutely dry, suggesting that the grass would help more in binding the surface together for the entire 100 overs than in assisting the seamers. The other vital ingredient, the outfield, was in perfect shape too, with the grass cut fine to ensure that batsmen would get full value for their strokes.Rahul Dravid, who will lead India again after Sourav Ganguly was ruled out of the next two games as well, refused to speculate on the composition of the Indian team, but it is unlikely that any changes will be made from the line-up which beat Australia so convincingly at Gwalior. Though Ajit Agarkar had a disappointing opening spell, his crucial runs down the order should help him seal his place.Not surprisingly, Dravid spoke about the need to bowl better with the new ball, after Adam Gilchrist and Matthew Hayden scored 81 off the first 15 overs in their previous encounter. “There is very little margin for error against players of such quality. We have to restrict the runs early so that the spinners can then bowl in tandem and pile on the pressure on the batsmen.”Smarting from a convincing defeat in the first match, the Australians will need to prove that, despite the absence of all their star bowlers, they are still capable of putting it across an almost full-strength Indian line-up. So far in this series, their second-string bowling attack has performed admirably, keeping the Indian batsmen in check for much of the first match, and then skittling out New Zealand in seamer-friendly conditions. Ricky Ponting made no secret of his displeasure with the batting display, and it is unlikely that a line-up which includes – apart from Ponting himself – Hayden, Gilchrist, Martyn and Bevan will misfire twice in three games.Encouragingly for the Australians, Brad Hogg proved that Australia have a spin weapon as well if conditions do become favourable for the spinners. Dravid made light of Hogg’s impressive spell at Gwalior – “We were in the consolidation phase of our innings and hence weren’t taking too many risks” – but Hogg impressed with his control and his ability to turn the ball both ways.Meanwhile, SK Nair, secretary of the Indian board, stated that the selectors would meet tomorrow to select the squad for the next three games. Ganguly might well be kept out, as he is still recovering from a surgery on an abscess, but if his extended spell at the nets is any indication, then Ashish Nehra is a strong prospect. Bowling from his full run-up, Nehra steamed in and bowled a testing spell to Mohammad Kaif and Parthiv Patel. Parthiv, in particular, was constantly in trouble, playing and missing, and edging a few.Also in the nets was Sachin Tendulkar, bowling some teasing medium pace, before coming out for a short stint with the bat. In his last three ODIs here, Tendulkar has scored just 47 runs. Time for the law of averages to take effect?India (probable) 1 Virender Sehwag, 2 Sachin Tendulkar, 3 VVS Laxman, 4 Rahul Dravid (capt), 5 Mohammad Kaif, 6 Yuvraj Singh, 7 Parthiv Patel (wk), 8 Ajit Agarkar, 9 Harbhajan Singh, 10 Anil Kumble, 11 Zaheer Khan.Australia (probable) 1 Adam Gilchrist (wk), 2 Matthew Hayden, 3 Ricky Ponting (capt), 4 Damien Martyn, 5 Michael Bevan, 6 Andrew Symonds, 7 Ian Harvey, 8 Brad Hogg, 9 Andy Bichel, 10 Brad Williams, 11 Nathan Bracken.

'Pathan is getting better with every game'

Sourav Ganguly, on the road to recovery from the fever that kept him off the field for the whole of the third day of the first Test, spoke to the media after India’s emphatic win at Dhaka.

Sourav Ganguly leads the Indian team off the field after a comfortable win at Dhaka© Getty Images

On how Bangladesh played
They played well in patches. I thought they bowled well in the first session of the second day. They picked up three wickets, and there were a few dropped chances. It’s early days in international cricket for them, so you have to give them time.On this Bangladesh team in comparison to the one he played against in their inaugural Test in 2000-01
This is a pretty young side. When I played them four years ago, they had a few experienced guys. Most of these boys need to be persisted with because there is talent and they will get better with the experience. Experience does matter in Test cricket.On how easy or difficult it was to motivate the team against weak opposition
We were pretty motivated. As I said, it is Test cricket after all, and we were in a tough situation at 60 for 3. I don’t think motivation is a factor. Every Test series is important. We’ve done very well in Test cricket in the past couple of years and we need to keep on winning. It’s no different here.On whether the reserves would get a chance in the next Test
We have a thought in mind about that. We have some young guys in this team and we will probably look to give them an opportunity in the next Test and also in the one-day series to come. We’ve not spoken about it because the Test just got over. But that’s definitely an option. Because you need to give everybody a go to find out how good they are.On missing out on a hundred
It’s pretty disappointing. It’s happened right throughout the year. I’ve got runs but I’ve not converted them into hundreds. It’s pretty disappointing when you are playing well [and not getting a century].On Irfan Pathan
He’s getting better with every game. He’s young, he’s just 20 and he’s got loads of cricket ahead of him. He has to shoulder the responsibility of Indian fast bowling for quite some time.On Zaheer Khan’s batting
I thought he batted pretty well. We were to declare at lunch but he wanted to get a Test hundred. I thought he played pretty well for a No. 11.